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Chris Lanier's Blog

More on Fiji/Media Center TV Pack

Lots of stuff going around on Fiji, and while I can’t say as much as I’d like too I can say that no single person has put all the pieces together yet.  Word is that Fiji final name is indeed Windows Media Center TV Pack, and useless a separate product pops up out of nowhere I’d consider that pretty concrete.  Microsoft let that bit slip themselves by releasing a few knowledge base articles specifically about the TV Pack.

Engadget HD runs down what they expect to be in the update, and Brent Evans covers more of the news from a few different sources as does Mary Jo.

Now, I still can’t say much about it because of various different NDAs, but I can say there are still pieces missing from people accounts of how this is going to work and/or what is included in the update.  Good or bad however, I can’t say so you will have to wait.  Microsoft has hinted that the official announcement for Fiji will come at CEDIA in September.

On to what I can say, this beta has been a disaster if you look at it with an outside perspective.  I am very disappointed on how many people are leaking stuff, and if you thought a two year wait for a public beta was long for Fiji I’d suggest you not get your hopes up about testing anything else related to Media Center in the future.  Based on the disregard of the testers I wouldn’t be surprised if Microsoft cut out a public beta until everything is finalized for the next release.  You can thank your fellow beta testers for screwing you out of a possible opportunity. 

I’m also very disappointed at the collective attitude of The Green Button.  Not because Fiji might be OEM only, not because it might be missing DIRECTV support, not because of any included or missing feature but instead because of the childish name calling and activity that has gone on.  The Green Button used to be a community that pretty much moderated itself, but of course the second I get busy at work all hell breaks loss and people turn into name calling teenagers.  You can all do better, and I expect to see it.

Just because Microsoft bought The Green Button does not mean they will reply to all threads about unreleased and/or unannounced software.  Everyone needs to realize this.  Microsoft employees have been being more active in the forums, and considering this ownership transition is just starting it will take time for things to change.  Those who insist on flaming and name calling any member, Microsoft employed or not, will not be welcome at The Green Button.

I will have more on Fiji when I can talk about it, but sadly at this point all I can say is above.

Cross Posted from Chris Lanier's Blog at http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/
Published Friday, July 18, 2008 7:31 PM by Chris - Moderator
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Comments

 

shunopoli said:

Chris, Thank you for explaining this for us I agree with you on the name calling. Just downright childish. I have left many forums cause of this cause its not helping anyone just have to weed throught the usless posts.  I have been an active member here with 3 differnt logins because for some reason the forums wouldnt send me my pass ( thats another issue)

All the features that you listed are very much what I would like to see but its not the end of the world. Your posts have taught me alot and you are a respected member in this community and I look forward to reading more.

To all the microsoft people here I want to appoligise on behalf of a member of this forum about the name calling I think we are all more mature then that. I look forward to hearing from yalls expertise as well
July 18, 2008 6:18 PM
 

warwickwebb said:

I like that went talking about Fiji, Chris is disappointed with the beta testers, disappointed with everyone posting to TGB, yet doesn't have a single critical thing to say about the way MSFT has (mis)handled this long, drawn out pseudo-release. Don't let the money get to ya Chris.
July 18, 2008 6:28 PM
 

mikinho said:

The majority of the posts discuss the disappointment in Microsoft's lack of communication.  I don't see any that state that they expect more since Microsoft bought tgb, their lack of communication has been ongoing frustration as paying customers.
July 18, 2008 6:34 PM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

warwickwebb: What exactly should I be disappointed with Microsoft at?  For not releasing information on unreleased/unannounced software?  Has anything changed here, because they never do this.  Should I be disappointed at the features that they have not announced or said anything officially about?  Should I be disappointed about the idea of it being OEM only without any official word from Microsoft?

As I said, I'm under several NDAs that prevent me from saying anything yet.  Saying I'm disappointed about feature x or release y would involve me breaking my NDA as I would be confirming or denying the features.

And lastly, I don't get any kind of monthly check from Microsoft, nor am I employed by them, nor did I get a cent from the ownership change of The Green Button.

mikinho: The majority of posts including various flaming and were deleted/
July 18, 2008 7:30 PM
 

dravor said:

Chris,

Personally I'm apalled at how negative the entire board has become.  Every post is about how Fiji sucks because it doesn't have this or it doesn't have that.  I'm tired of trying to get people to understand why things are the way they are, and being cheapshotted.  I'm hereby requesting my account to be canceled and I'll be finding somewhere else to post.  The people here have gotten out of hand.

-Dravor
July 18, 2008 7:32 PM
 

boulder2 said:

Of course people are negative about Fiji.
That sentiment isn't even caused by Fiji by itself, but by the snail pace at which Mediacenter has evolved over the years.
DVB-C, S and T are either missing in action or very underdeveloped.
Now, with the new version it appears that those digital flavours will be included, but not DVB-S2.
Again we can wait (a couple of years ???) for MS to get where the rest of the market has been for several years now.
The same goes for Diseqc (1.0, 1.1 or 2.0) support.

The number of tuners that can be used simultaneously has been a pain in the neck ever since Mediacenter was developed as well.
And even when features are included, they are not as well developed as some freeware (Mediaportal) alternatives implement them.
I would be surprised if Fiji could do the following, which I do on an almost-daily basis with DVBViewer :

* go to BBC1, press record
* switch to BBC2, press record
* switch to BBC3, press record
* switch to BBC4

All of this happens with one single tuner, because the software is intelligent enough to know that all stations are on the same transponder, and opens the same mux many times...

So, all in all, a lot of the dissappointment comes from the fact that MS is releasing today what it should have released 2 or more years ago.
July 19, 2008 6:53 AM
 

warwickwebb said:

I'd like to apologize for the comment I left on this blog last night. I attacked Chris personally and he certainly didn't deserve it. Hopefully I can contribute in a more positive way to TGB in the future...
July 19, 2008 8:02 AM
 

christian_s said:

"I’m also very disappointed at the collective attitude of The Green Button." come on  Chris, not all users are negative here. TGB is a great site and I've learned a ton of stuff and gotten great help here. I've seen a few really negative posts from a few persons related to MS purchasing the site and the Fiji scope. I've taken the view that those persons are even more passionate about media center than me and are frustrated with not knowing what's going to happen in the future. From the posts it's also seems that some users do not realize the difference between individuals as MS and MS Corp, further some users do not understand how many product teams have to coordinate their work to get a media center release put together.

I think it would actually be beneficial if some MS guys could get on Ian's podcast and in broad terms explain about the various teams (vista, xp, win7, wmp, mediacenter, zune, ext partner team ...) and how the scoping/development process works.
July 19, 2008 12:59 PM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

I felt pretty good about that sentence relating to those who have abused the privilege of posting.  As for you not seeing many negative posts, you should see my deleted posts section of Community Server where 2 pages have been filled with deleted posts from people flaming TGB members, Microsoft employees and everything in between.

I have no problem with people being frustrated with Microsoft, but that is no excuse for flaming, name calling, etc.
July 19, 2008 1:09 PM
 

christian_s said:

I fully agree that name calling and such is not needed on TGB. My experience here has always been that the fellow users are really helpful, much like the smaller wegotserved community wich is also really great. In general I do not think people should post stuff which they would not be saying in a face to face communication  and if a user is really upset it's probably worth while to write a draft and then re-read 24 hours later before posting. Usually the pulse will have dropped by then :-) Heck even 5 min. might help.

I did read the MS has purchased TGB thread. Browsing quickly through it (at the time) the posts oveall seemed negative. I hadn't made up my mind so I didn't post anything and maybe more constructive/positive users felt the same way. Unfortunately this may have left the space to the more aggressive/confrontational users who already has made up their mind.

Regarding Fiji I find it hard to be exited over. There is really nothing for me in that release apart from DVB-T subtitles, which I can live without. It's certainly not something I'm going to pay extra for. I've tried to read everything I could get my hands on about Fiji and I have not seen any indications that Music, Pictures & Video sections will be improved. That leaves TV and I got my DVB-T card setup so nothing new for me.
July 20, 2008 1:03 AM
 

shnoogie said:

Well, what did Microsoft, or anyone for that matter, expect?

Vista Media Center has burned nearly all of the early adopters, and they are PISSED that details on the "fix" are sketchy.  Can you blame them?  

Release a shoddy half finished product, and whatch your customer base turn into an angry mob... Suprised it took this long.

It's IS unfortunate that it had to happen on one of the only havens for Media Center users.

Sorry Chris, but I hope MS is paying attention.
July 20, 2008 4:05 PM
 

butcher71 said:

Well, I think that when people reah a determined point, they explode... We have been waiting a long time for "simple" things that a DVB-T tuner of 40€ have had for years, and when, supposedly, it's been done, we're told to wait two months more, and hope to not have to pay anything more for the product... I don't want to talk about dvb-s support or Diseqc...

Chris, thank you for your time, but I think that the people that post at TGB deserve a little more information about what is going on.
July 21, 2008 6:38 AM
 

Mashman said:

What a ridiculous post this is!  

To say – “Now, I still can’t say much about it because of various different NDAs”, why say anything at all?  To repudiated others for having incorrect information?  To be flippant, and say, ‘ha ha – you don’t know what I know!’?

That’s the problem with TGB, it’s become an ‘Us’ and ‘Them’ site, hasn’t the notorious ‘Question about the Letter’ thread taught anyone anything?

When I first started coming to TGB, it was a wonderful source of information, but this kind of crap is making less than useless.
July 21, 2008 8:47 AM
 

Shiba3420 said:

I'm very negative, but I see no way to speak that way. While I'm not happy with Microsoft as a company, I'm usually very happy with the employees that are here and assist us with our issues.

I'd actually like to make a request of the moderators...be much more firm. This is expecially true in the MS help section. This is a place where we can ask questions and usually get answers, but it flooded with people talking trash about the product or suggesting other products. No one asking a quesiton want to hear this nonsense. Please be more agressive with these posts, asking people to stop sooner and banning users who fail to stop. There should be places on the board where people can complain and talk trash, but the Q&A sections aren't for that. Somehow, I feel like the problem began there and the cure must begin there too.
July 21, 2008 11:57 AM
 

Chris - Moderator said:

"To say – “Now, I still can’t say much about it because of various different NDAs”, why say anything at all?"

Because I got a few dozen e-mails when I said nothing?
July 21, 2008 7:27 PM
 

erwos said:

The problem is essentially this:

Vista wasn't a huge jump over MCE2005 in terms of functionality. It was prettier, there was a bit of new stuff, but it sure didn't seem like years of dev time had been put into the product. But we were told that this was just the grunt work for the future awesome stuff, so keep the faith.

A couple years later, we're getting yet another incremental update. SageTV and friends have passed WMC in functionality, and all Microsoft can do is tell us how they have CableCard support and no one else does. This is true, but ultimately not all that useful in light of the fact that no one can build their own system with it, and the recent introduction of the Hauppauge HD-PVR cards (that _is_ supported by other software). They were entirely content to ignore clear QAM entirely, forcing us to go down the HDHomeRun route, which isn't exactly pain free.

It's no surprise that the community is mostly burned out and angry, because Microsoft isn't delivering on their promises of the highest quality, most useful software PVR on the market. You can only tell people that great stuff is coming for so long until they stop believing you. Most people have stopped believing - I know I did, which is why I bought a TiVo HD.
July 22, 2008 6:52 AM
 

Crostian said:

I agree with butcher71 and erwos. On the other hand I agree with Chris as well on all the complaining. I come to this site to gain information, not to read people bickering amongst one another. Take this blog for example: I came here to read up on info regarding the new TV pack released by MS and sure enough it has turned into a pissing contest. I realize I am defending both parties here but the conclusion boils down to this: If you look at the overall picture this has been one kick in the teeth after another for PC builders. I mean, we all bought Vista Ultimate so we could record our HD yummy goodness from our cable providers. Plus it's awesome being able to have every single DVD in your collection, not to mention the Netflix utility, at your fingertips! Who the hell wants to thumb trough 400 DVD's, or wait for Netflix to send your movies, or have to switch your TV input and your sound to watch and record TV anymore? I enjoy building my own PC's because I can dictate what equipment I put in there and how the overall PC looks and feels. It's a hobby I truly enjoy but lately it has become somewhat depressing due to the whole HD cable within VMC fiasco! I realize that there are solutions to this problem waiting for us on the horizon but this has been the case for a while it seems like. It just seems to always be something. I guess it's frustrating that I bought an OS for 250+ bones and it doesn't work the way I would like it to.
July 22, 2008 7:56 AM
 

RemkoR said:

I'd like to put things into perspective here.

We are a (startup) digital home integrator in Europe and we use media center technology for almost all projects. If you use media center for what it was designed to do it has many unique features, not the least its superb user interface. Our customers are mostly families with no technical skills whatsoever and not into gadget stuff.
The 2 most important improvements of media center were the new userinterface of Vista and the introduction of V2 extenders. I think the true value of the VMC user interface is often underestimated.

It is my belief that the opinions on this board are not a good representation of what the average user thinks of VMC. None of my customers will ever visit this board. The average tgb user seems to be more of a techie or at least has a more than average interest in IT. From that perspective most criticism on VMC is understandable but somewhat "colored". I'm quite sure that the top10 wishlist for new features in VMC of my customers will be quite different.

MS is a software company and so far has not been able to find the right way to communicate with the intended VMC end-users. Partners like Linksys or HP also seem to fail at this point. And consumer-electronics companies like Philips or Sony don't seem committed (yet). Without any major changes in market approach I don't see VMC becoming succesfull in the mass-market.

Is VMC perfect ? No, of course not. Luckily there are companies and enthousiasts out there that make plugins and VMC compliant hardware that will allow us to offer a total solution to our customers that still is unique, both on a functional as a price level.

What is on the top of the list of a digital home integrator ? The roadmap. Which way is VMC going and when will which functionality be available short term to long term. It will help us to anticipate better to market conditions.

Finally I challenge all you readers that seem unhappy with VMC to come up with an alternative, total solution that your partner or mother-in-law will appreciate better than VMC...
July 22, 2008 2:32 PM
 

Crostian said:

Good Post RemkoR. I agree that the opinions on this board are not a good representation of what the average user thinks of VMC. But then again, the average user doesn't have the slightest clue on how to setup, or for that matter take advantage of most features within VMC. I believe I speak for every savvy user of VMC that the number 1 feature that they would like to see WORK is to Watch and Record LIVE HD Cable/Satellite! I'm not talking over the air crap because we know what a crap shoot that is. I want to be able to purchase a cable/satellite HD package, hook the damn thing up to my VMC machine and go to  town like James Brown in China Town! I realize you can buy OEM systems but who the hell wants to do that when they can build their own system for so much cheaper. I realize you can send your cable/satellite box off to some shady dude in Australia, or where ever the hell  R5000 HD solution is located and have them augment your box but that is not 100% reliable and who knows if they truly support your carrier or not. ATI has made this OCUR box that you can purchase separately through Sony  but that doesn't do any of us any good because you have to have an OEM system. Oh and what about the Hauppauge HD DVR streamer box??? NOT!!! VMC doesn't support streaming h.264! You can playback h.264 with some utility and add-ons but you can't watch live h.264 so that one is out. The hold DirecTV HDPC-20 box was a sham because it looks like VMC is not going to support it after all, or who even knows if that thing was real in the first place. Some people might say "oh well the new TV pack might have an update later on this year but guess what?" TV Pack is only available for OEM's. It's like I said before, "it's one kick in the Teeth after another!". I do apologize if this sounded negative and I also apologize if I have wasted anyone's time reading this.  It is just a little frustrating when you hit one road block after another.
July 23, 2008 6:16 AM
 

RemkoR said:

I understand the frustration, Crostian, digital (HD)tv isn't the strongest point of VMC. It is however the most complex part if you look at it globally, and VMC is a global product (ok, the EPG isn't). There is no standardization on distribution and encryption. And there are cable providers who changed their encryption method several times over the last years. Hardly an excuse but I do understand that these things take time. You might say "this or that company CAN provide the service I like, why can't Microsoft ?" Check first whether it's a local, national of global solution, my guess is it won't be global.

Our customers however love the miniguide that allow them to change channels just as rapid as they did on the old telly.
July 23, 2008 11:20 AM
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